What are the latest rules regarding..........

Latest post 01-28-2008 2:58 PM by Lisa O'Sullivan. 16 replies.
  • 01-25-2008 8:44 AM

    What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Since the rules change frequently, I'm doing a reality check to see what the latest accepted usage is:


    e-mail or email

    web site, Web site or website (and the variations of webmaster, web mail, etc.)

    on-site, onsite or on site

    off-site, offsite or off site 

    on-line, online, or on line

    off-line, offline, or off line

    mind-set or mindset

    Finally, why is it realtime when referring to our profession but is real-time every other place that I can find as a reference?

     

    I'm an old dog who just likes to keep up with the latest trends (but don't look at my wardrobe <g>) and after all these years I can tell you that the only certainty is that we all should be doing these periodic checks because this kind of stuff has been all over the board, it seems, in terms of common usage. 

    Thanks for your help. 


  • 01-25-2008 10:16 AM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Chuck, good questions.  I was never so surprised as to check my brand spankin new M-W one year and find out I had to change a whole flock of spellings, mostly by removing hyphens.

    I looked up all of the words you listed in the M-W Unabridged online, and this is what I found:

    e-mail
    web site (usually capped)
    webmaster
    on-line (in the unabridged version 2002) BUT . . .
    online (in the collegiate version)  so I'm totally confused
    off-line (no offline option in either version)
    mind-set (I've been doing it wrong! Embarrassed )
    and, yes, real-time.  I'll leave the whys to wiser heads.

    I'm sure that through Onelook, you can find variations, but M-W has always been "my" dictionary, so I try to follow it regardless of common usage.  I think sometimes it looks archaic, but I know I'm on firm ground.

     

  • 01-25-2008 5:42 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

     Brenda,

     

    Thanks.  I guess I'm doing okay.  I need to change my website back to two words.  After I posted that of course I had a CART job where the PowerPoint slides had the word onsite as one word. Now that one just plain looked wrong but it's those crazy things that make me start questioning this sort of minutia.

     

    Have a good weekend. 

  • 01-26-2008 3:01 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Chuck Motter:
    Since the rules change frequently, I'm doing a reality check to see what the latest accepted usage is:

    Practice is continually morphing into something new, and the rules -- like all theory or theology -- are descriptive rather than prescriptive, i.e., ultimately describing what has already become common practice.

    Most of the questions you're asking fall squarely into the category of words/phrases presently transitioning from one practice to another, so there really are no definitive answers; you'll get different answers depending on where you look.  My suggestion is pick a default dictionary and stick to it until such time as you intentionally make a change.


    e-mail or email

    Merriam-Webster dictionaries say e-mail, and often capitalized.  However, other more current dictionaries are moving towards email.  The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) entry concisely states:  "Email:  also e-mail, colloquial shortening of electronic mail." 

    web site, Web site or website (and the variations of webmaster, web mail, etc.)

    There is no consensus.  Again quoting from the OED:  "web site, web-site, website, also with capital initial."

    on-site, onsite or on site

    off-site, offsite or off site

    I find no support for the single-word form of these words.  And since they are almost never used in any form except adjective or adverb, they are hyphenated in nearly every situation.

    on-line, online, or on line

    off-line, offline, or off line

    One might also add in-line/inline to the same query.  Usage is clearly swinging to one-word forms.  Generally speaking, only dictionaries getting a bit long in the tooth (like the M-W) are not supporting the one-word forms.

    mind-set or mindset

    Same response as that for online.

     


    Richard J. Wyble, Scoping & Support for Court Reporters http://www.LegalScopist.com
  • 01-26-2008 3:10 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Long-in-the-tooth M-W, huh?  I've used that as "my" dictionary since school.  Richard, do you have a recommendation for a default dictionary that is more current, as you say?  I do go to Onelook, but if there's a conflict between dictionaries, I always defer to M-W.  I'm open to change so that I don't look out of date, but I don't want to be bouncing between dictionaries. 

    TIA.

  • 01-26-2008 3:25 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Brenda Rogers:

    Long-in-the-tooth M-W, huh?  I've used that as "my" dictionary since school.  Richard, do you have a recommendation for a default dictionary that is more current, as you say?  I do go to Onelook, but if there's a conflict between dictionaries, I always defer to M-W.  I'm open to change so that I don't look out of date, but I don't want to be bouncing between dictionaries. 

    TIA.

     

    I doubt that any single dictionary will suffice.  I use Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary as my default reference, supplementing it with the current M-W Collegiate (electronically integrated with the unabridged, more modern and more frequently updated; the M-W online offerings are also more current), the Oxford English Dictionary, and various sources accessible via the onelook.com search engine.

    My long-in-the-tooth observation was really pointed specifically at the M-W Unabridged.  The bulk of its material was compiled in the late 1950s and first published in the very early 1960s.  It was supplemented later (1980s, I believe) but not significantly.  It seems to be standing the tests of time remarkably well, but after 40-plus years is due for a major overhaul.

    On the subject of onelook.com, be very aware that onelook.com is a search engine, not a dictionary.  You must click through the "hits" before you get to a source you can even evaluate.  Not infrequently, a search there displays different information in the search results than are really in the references when you click through and read them; I find that particularly true when searching, for example, for the one-word form of something and then discover that all entries are actually hyphenated.
     

     


    Richard J. Wyble, Scoping & Support for Court Reporters http://www.LegalScopist.com
  • 01-26-2008 3:47 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Thank you, Richard.  I do have a subscription to M-W Unabridged, which is how I got the reference to the collegiate and the different listing there.  I've been using onelook.com for almost three years and so I do understand how to use it.  There are just some references that I don't trust and don't use (for instance, I won't take a listing in dictionary.com over a M-W listing).

    This is making more sense to me.  The collegiate is the one I've used as a physical book; the unabridged online.  If they conflict, sounds like the collegiate is the more up to date.  That helps a lot.  Thanks!

  • 01-26-2008 3:49 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Richard,

    I appreciate your input.  I didn't know you had responded until I got an e-mail notification that Brenda had responded to you.  That's an issue I have been having with this forum lately, in terms of only getting intermittent notifications of responses to threads in which I participate.  That subject is probably better addressed in another section of this forum, however.  

    As to the subject at hand, I'm going to reluctantly confess my ignorance concerning the following statement:  "since they are almost never used in any form except adjective or adverb, they are hyphenated in nearly every situation."  This is embarrassing to admit but I don't have any background in grammar (I grew up in the era where English classes meant literature and had no grammar beyond third grade), so the whole concept of adjectives and adverbs is lost on me.  Without taking a lot of your time to educate me in the rules of grammar, let me set out a couple of examples of things I am grappling with and have you tell me if the usage is correct or incorrect, if you would.

     

    I found the resource I was looking for on line.

    The on-line resource I found was helpful.

    We were able to provide service on site.

    The on-site service was above and beyond what we were able to provide.

    Let's take this discussion off line.

     

    Thanks for giving me a little direction here. 

     

  • 01-27-2008 12:09 AM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    [[ didn't know you had responded until I got an e-mail notification that Brenda had responded to you.  That's an issue I have been having with this forum lately, in terms of only getting intermittent notifications of responses to threads in which I participate.  That subject is probably better addressed in another section of this forum, however.    ]]

    It's an issue many of us have, Chuck.  I haven't gotten one email notification since the move to this very slow forum.   I can't imagine why they would have discontinued such a nice feature.

    Marge

    Marge Teilhaber, RDR

    http://www.mteilhaber.com

    independent freelance court reporter NY/CT/NJ

  • 01-27-2008 3:56 AM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Marge, the feature hasn't been discontinued; it's just inconsistent.  I get most email notifications to threads I've subscribed to, including this one.  Other people, I understand, don't get any.  It's very strange.

  • 01-28-2008 12:55 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Brenda, I use The American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition, which I love.  It has a copyright date of 2000.  Don't know of any reason why it would be considered any less of an authority than M-W except for someone on a different forum merely saying so. ;)

    It lists as its first choices e-mail, offline (as an adj.), online (as an adj.), website; second choices, email, off-line (adj.), on-line (adj.), and Web site.

     

    ETA:  Oh, and mindset first, mind-set second;  and simply webmaster.

  • 01-28-2008 1:11 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    And, Chuck, pardon me for jumping in, but since you haven't yet heard from Richard, I thought I'd give my two cents:

    I do believe you're correct in all instances above, since you've used hyphens with the adjectives (which describe things) and not used hyphens with the adverbs (which describe how/when/where things are done).

  • 01-28-2008 1:33 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Chuck Motter:
    I found the resource I was looking for on line.

    I would use the one-word form, online, though the hyphenated on-line is also correct.  But it needs to be either one word or hyphenated (preferably one word, but some latitude depending on your dictionary and your preferences) when used as either adjective or adverb, not two words.

    The on-line resource I found was helpful.

    Ditto the above, only this time it's an adjective rather than an adverb. 

    We were able to provide service on site.

    We were able to provide service on-site.  The adverb on-site modifies the verb to provide.

    The on-site service was above and beyond what we were able to provide.

    Correct.



    Richard J. Wyble, Scoping & Support for Court Reporters http://www.LegalScopist.com
  • 01-28-2008 1:40 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    Lisa O'Sullivan:
    . . . hyphens with the adjectives (which describe things) and not used hyphens with the adverbs (which describe how/when/where things are done).
     

    According to the American Heritage dictionary, your default, both the adverb and adjective forms of on-site are hyphenated.

    As for online, the two-word adverb on line is congruent with American Heritage -- but personally I defer to the OED and stick with either the one-word online or hyphenated on-line in all instances.

     


    Richard J. Wyble, Scoping & Support for Court Reporters http://www.LegalScopist.com
  • 01-28-2008 1:56 PM In reply to

    Re: What are the latest rules regarding..........

    You're right about on-site, which I hadn't listed.

    And the style book I use, Garner's, supports your one-word-or-hyphenated practice re online both as an adverb and as an adjective, so I would assume that applies to offline as well. :)

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